First of all, what? I have a kennel enclosure with 4 10'x10' kennels and an exercise yard 30'x40'. Sweep the dg into the flagstone joints, then carefully hose it downwashing small bits of dg down into any voids that may be hidden underneath the flagstone. Podcast 529: Members-only AftershowHow Good is Good Enough? First off, thank you for giving your location! Sigh! If you used screenings as both the leveling agent and as the joint filler, this is no big deal. Hello Devin, thank you for the very informative article. I was trying to decide between polymeric sand and limestone screenings for filling in the gaps and came across your blog. After grinding out the joints you water to broom up all the debris, then blow off all the dust, then hose off all the dust..and get those joints nice and clean. I was tempted to use the leftover poly sand from our paved project on our flagstones which already have screenings between them because after a good rain lots of stone chips pop up onto the flagstones making it unpleasant to walk on with bare feet. Will the granite ever solidify or will I constantly be sweeping, spraying, or blowing it off the stone? In warmer places, a 3 to 4 inch gravel base is more common. After excavating the area, pour in about three inches of a base layer of crushed rock. Great! Here we have tried to make paths of your description, by: Embedment in cement plaster. A little bit more than you think it needs. I think that where there is soil, the rain results in dirty water covering the stones, making them dirty more quickly than might be expected. I just have to tell you . You want to go maybe 1 deep and maybe 1/2 wide. Hi I wish I could afford to hire you! Are the stones too small, I mean, maybe hes thinking to glue the stones down with the cement? Can I use polymeric sand to fill in the gap or decomposed granite? I was excited by the product at first.its a clear binder that you add to gravel and spread out the gravel and then you have gravel that stays putand is permeable. Other times Ive considered dry laying on top of existing concrete because the existing concrete was in bad repair. Maybe half of those patios also have limestone screenings as the leveling agenthalf an inch to inch and a half limestone screenings beneath the flagstones as well as an inch or so on either side of the stones (the joints)never once have I seen a freeze-thaw issue, or any cracked flagstones on any of these jobs. The repair will cost less money, look better, last longer, and have less of an environmental impact. Great information and encouragement! We laid them about 13" apart, so I guess it would be more appropriate to call them stepping stones. I thank you so very much. Read the directions, follow precautions (gloves, mask, glasses). I am Gonna use the bluestone dust we got from the quarry. I have pea gravel, QP would have packed down nice but its not friendly for barefeet. If the patio is dry laid, on a sand/gravel or stone dust foundation..then theres should not be anything portland cement based in the joints. How can I offer landscape advice if I dont know your climate? Anyone use this sand to firm up a stone driveway? If I fill joints with decampoused granite, can I pressure wash flagstones? Take your time and get out what you can. remove it and install 1 1/2 size river rock. This is in New Jersey by the way. It can be used in a pinch if your setting bed is very thin - like 1/4 to 1/2" inch and preferably with a tad bit of a binder sifted in to keep the particles from shifting. I have 4 large, thick stones for the 4 corners and many med-large stones interspersed for stability. Take your time planning.consider taking a workshop if theres one available in your area. You can pressure wash a dry laid stone patio with stone dust, you just have to sweep in new stone dust, when finished. You may get away with 2 or 4 inch jointsbut it will work better with stones fit more tightly than that. Hey Devin- I too want to thank you for promoting not putting plastic into the environment! Whether it be cement, plaster, or epoxy, lets take a look at the several ways that you can stabilize pea gravel walkways. I do think I may need to cut a center trench prior to adding the sand and screening to add a drainage pipe in case of future settling? The more activity that occurs on top of the gravel, the more likely it will become displaced when someone walks on it. It also allows for drainage, which can be beneficial in areas with heavy rainfall, as it prevents water from pooling on the surface. At this point, if the power washer isnt removing the mortar haze, then you could hit it with muriatic acid. Or small pebbles..but the thing is, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your patio stones. Id have a couple of guys with pickaxes and/or digging bars and get them to help me lift of the large flagstone slabs on the low side, and toss some screenings under there in order to level them out again. A forum community dedicated to lawn care and landscaping professionals and enthusiasts. They took the quick easy way outand left large gaps to be filled with sand. If the pea gravel is used on a walkway or driveway, it can be enough to merely compress it to create stability. Wish Id have found you 10 years ago Id have you building my dream stacked wall. My concern is two fold. Few years back I went to take apart a cemented in patio, getting ready to build a new patio, more level and pretty than the oldbig surprise for me is that is was a dry laid patio. from what Im able to google on the matter, Im pretty sure 1/4 inch minus is graded properly to be used as a joint material. No polymeric sand. Unfortunately, job is small and nothing artistic about it. Compacting the pea gravel will help keep it in place. Have you ever used limestone stone dust for flag patios, and if so, would you recommend it? Use too much water and the binder, an acrylic glue, washes out and leaves a nasty haze all over your carefully laid flagstone. Bad news, that stuff. Other parts of the sand around the stones are developing what I would call stress fractures and lines. Through the washing, exposed some cracks between the pavers. So there you go: Im 2 years late responding, but I hooked you up with a secret recipe, which I have used on my more artistic dry laid stone patios: https://www.devineescapes.com/artistic-flagstone-patios/. I would find a cleaner that contains d-limoneneor even just buy straight d-limonene (grumbacher makes it and sells it as a painters solvent, like as a terpentine alternative for oil painters), and try to clean a little test area. They dont bother our river rocks by the pond but those are fairly large. Anyway. After reading your article, Im confused.. Is polymeric dust the same thing as screening? Decomposed granite is the same thing. Placing a border around the perimeter of pea gravel paths and walkways is one of the best ways to stabilize pea gravel. Just dont! I dry laid the flagstone (on a 4-inch compacted base of 5/8th minus gravel with a 1 inch layer of 1/4 minus gravel that the stone was set on top of). Once the flagstones have all been cleaned and/or replaced, then return that polymeric sand, buy some stone dust.and send me photos of the completed job when you are done! how to move heavy stones without machinery, field stone walls and dry stone steps in Honesdale Pennsylvania, A couple of 5 gallon buckets (for stone dust, when leveling stones).shovel, wheel barrow..4 level. Thank you Devin for this, preparing to put in quartz flags in Colorado over clay soil, gravel base, love this long term solution you provide with decomposed granite for leveling and filler. Yes, he was almost certainly talking about screenings. But its not a small thing. In any event, it didnt get quite cleaned up enough/soon enough. Were using paving sand as the base. Maybe poly sand for the edge stones and dust for the rest? Again, elbow grease. Also, its toxic stuff were talking. Hi Devin. thanks, Chris (Santa Cruz Ca). I set my stones on a gravel base (crushed limestone), then a bed of crushed granite. Alas, Ive been a bit busy with tentacles and planetoids, and also with helping DIY enthusiasts with their own projects. My brother suggested sand? Love your artwork with stone. Hello, and thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. If an area is Shady or damp then sometimes that can cause thin algae growth that can make flagstones look dirty. I know it hasnt been that long since the quarry dust was placed between the stones and according to what I have read in your comments, the stone/dust will settle down. What do you think? and our Any idea where we could look for some advice? Theres environmental impact happening. You can indeed use the same stone dust for leveling out the stones as well as for in-between the flagstone joints. But on a dirt foundation, to set flagstones in a bed of cement based mortar, just doesnt make sense, for use with flagstone. Additionally, the stabilization method will depend on what your final product is going to be. Do you have any comments on how to best drain this so it doesnt continue to settle after i install the flagstones? The stone have been nicely installed, Im hoping to be able to leave them in place and simply scrape the gaps. Use the mallet only to gently set the stones into the crushed granite. I am considering adding about 5 to 10 tons of fines to firm things up a bit, hoping that the smaller particles will help lock the larger stones in place. Should we scrape all screening, organic material and weeds? Keep the joint material just shy of the tops of your stones, an eighth inch or quarter inch lowdo this, and your problem will be solved. Do you have any ideas of what the cause could be? Sand is generally a poor choice for underneath flagstone. Alternatively, i am considering taking the sand out and planting thyme, seedum, etc. Even less worried about it, if your area does not freeze during the winter. It is apparently about 12 yrs old. https://www.devineescapes.com/flagstone-what-to-use-sand-cement-or-gravel/. Ive never studied it, never used it for a client and been unable to study its utility over the yearswhich is a major omission on my part. Best recommendation is to use large flagstone, small joints, stone dust/decomposed granite as the leveling agent and joint material. On occasions when I have wanted red for in-between the flagstones, Ive just used grey for leveling, and purchased a smaller amount of the red. Repoint with Masons mortargrout is for tile work, indoors. My search for this is not yielding good information. Shady area you say? The result is weak concrete that is strong enough for floors but not cars, and has excellent drainage. Jobsite Saw PRO has a wider table, a new dust-control port, and a more versatile fence, along with the same reliable safety mechanism included in all SawStop tablesaws. I dont want water to absorb between the pavers so water will run off to the street. If so, dont use it. Theyll sell it in the masonry section at depot/lowes. Otherwise, the DG gets everywhere. Screenings are sold by the name screenings in New Jerseyalthough some places may use the name grit or stone dust. Thank you for your devotion to this subject. Sorry, I must have missed your question.nearly 2 years ago. I have a flagstone porch with flagstone stairs. Pea gravel is round and tends to roll, so laying down a base layer of a more coarse, angular rock can help stabilize the pea gravel. But, you came to me with a need and Id rather give you a complete answer. We bought an older house last year, and what I thought was a small stone landing at the base of the old deck turned out to be an irregular limestone patio. We got really heavy rain and its very wet and now some of the stones move and are sloshing around in the stone dust there are no pools of water but its really soft and the lots of the stones move and almost slosh down when stepped on. Youre doing a sitting wall too? Actually, one extra stepthey like you to first excavate for your walkway, then lay out this plastic honeycomb material, then fill that honeycomb with clean gravelits a two inch thick honeycomb, then pour 2 of the gravel glue mix on top of that.so you need to get your excavation fairly level for the honeycomb to sit right.you also need to set an edging material of some kind before you pour the glue gravel stuffwe used two x fours, staked into place, which we removed after the walkway was set, after the glue had hardened. Are you stuck having someone put more in? I love the look of pea gravel, but it sure doesn't handle traffic well. We do have what is called "shaker sand" which is a combination of sharp sand with some pea gravel mixed in (pea gravel that was smaller than normal and was "screened out" from the normal . I was wondering if you know the best way to do this and what would be good to use in wider joints. Im thinking you could take a concrete saw and just run one cut down the middle of the trench. Thank you for the advice tho! *its a plant fiber. I just completed a four month long project laying 800 sf of irregular Pennsylvania Blue flagstone (variable thickness stone of 1.5 to 2.25 inches think); at our house in Seattle, WA. Inch and a half Ill pass.but if theres stones with 2 inches or more of sand, then I expect to see more problems down the road. and our Or let it stayit will just frustrate you again in the spring and youll end up removing it all then. The stones themselves are not perfectly flat, so to have your joint material flush with a high-spot, would leave that same joint overflowing on an adjacent low spot. Cool, Im glad that worked out from youand Ill use those two flagstone photos, for next time someone asks a similar question. If not, then Id grab my oxygen/acetylene torch. The larger material will help to jam up the drainage-cut, making it so less fines settle down below the concrete, while still letting water drain. Every time it rains, screening from my joints splatters into my stone and patio furniture. If using sand rather than stone dust, then you should try and keep the sand depth to an inch or so. Thx, I do phone/email consultations for $93 an hour. Like Ive said many timesjust stay away from plastic landscape products! Some joints are huge with tiny stones sort of floating in concrete. Thanks! We did buy poly sand, but can exchange it for the screening. I just saw them at the rock yard and thought they looked attractive because of the effect the tumbling had on them. Mix up type S mortar mixpre-mixed stuff is fine. I had thought pea gravel would look great, but I was scared off by the instability issue. I was planning on Breeze but hear it will be tracked into the house and wash away. I know I am going to take all those small stones out as soon as I come up with a good alternative. Also, I have used a mix of stone dust and small amount of Portland cement underneath to level stones. The patio comes off the basement door and is surround on three sides by 4-5 retaining walls, and had a 4 drain in the pave patioit was sinking especially around the drain. *also note that i do indeed also use a 4.5 grinder and/or a 14 saw, in order to achieve a tight-fit patio. Should be fine. Expect to be topping off the stone dust trenches a couple times a year, first year or 2. I filled each joint half full and then ran a light plate compactor (with rubber protector matt between the plate and the stone this vibrated the sand down into all the voids at the bottom of each joint) then I came back through with the grout bag and filled the joint to the approximately 1/8th of an inch below the top surface of the flagstone. I might get a bag and experiment with a small section, maybe at the start of the driveway. We have large four inch thick, Colonial stone laid on a dry base, like a stepping stone path. Thats the basic formula. I wish I had read the forum BEFORE listening to the landscaper. I just want to say thank you for your articles and all the questions youve answered on here. Not sure how far they are from you, but this material looks right. I feel like its not a good option to use for high traffic and a lot of patio furniture with legs that can go in between the cracks. Having decades of experience, I can make this type of material workby fitting them tight, malleting them into their bedding material, maybe using some of the smaller ones uprightor not at all, and other tricks Ive picked up over the yearsbut still at the end of the day, a dry laid patio built with this sort of material will probably not be 100% wobble free at job completion. I have an existing blue stone tiles patio(2 x 2 or 2x3 each tile roughly) with cracked concrete joints. Devin, What a great article. Most of the patio is in a high sun area, so moss (which I love) is out of the question I think. If the gator dust is failing so soon, AND there is such a gigantic cavity forming, one can imagine that there must be something wrong with the gravel foundation beneath the flagstones. So first we plan to dig out and level the area, then lay down some coarse sand (tamp it) for drainage. He also suggested going to a cement company and asking about their sand. When gravel shifts, it can expose the weed cloth underneath, letting weeds overtake the edges of your gravel walkway or driveway. work the soil to a depth of approximately 5 to 6 inches, How To Keep Gravel In Place In A Driveway. Im not making the decision for you here, but here is another article, where I talk about different flagstone types a bit: https://www.devineescapes.com/what-type-of-flagstone-to-use-for-your-patio-or-stone-walkway/. The manufacturer recommends clean gaps of just polymeric sand. Its liquid plastic, alright. Hello: I just read your article regarding polymeric sand use, thank you for your thoughts on this. A little bit more, less than a quarter of a ton for the joints. If you do not have any orange based cleaner, then try using a bit of vinegar along with the wire-brush. We have worked with a company in Western PA called Harsco Minerals which has a product called Mineral CSA (formerly known as REC MIX) which we have used as a pond liner for treating mine drainage. Its hardened as sort of a spongy material. No freeze-thaw issues. My new mason installed flagstone using polymeric sand. I have done this, for a client. They're sold as soil stabilizers (type that into google and settle in), but the principle is the same. Devin, You are absolutely the best source of info concerning flagstone installation. It would compact into a pretty hard surface over time. Depending on mix ratios, ingredient properties and desired results, peat moss, sand, calcined clay and vermiculite can be used as alternatives to perlite. Sure, with such large gaps the stone dust may kick out, and get on the stone surface, but it wont be an annoyance or a trip hazard, the way that larger gravel probably will. Im so glad I found your webpage. First, lay a foundation of compacted stone aggregate, then lay individual flagstones using screenings as the leveling agent. We have paver sand i the joints now. I have a circle design using left-over holland pavers; so there are cracks. So my answer involves work. Find someone who specializes in dry laid flagstone work. Repair the flagstone. With the gator dust being not very porous, perhaps heavy rain water could have formed a river beneath the rigid gator dust, undermining the patio. STone flour, such a fine dust that dampening it somewhat, sorta binds it up. Yes, whenever you grind out mortar joints between flagstone, I pretty much expect a stone or two to pop up lose. I would like to use something called a tumbled Colorado Red Stepper which is relatively small compared to other stones. Finally, Ill bring back the stones and level them (with screenings?) If my advice is at all helpful, then please share my stuff on social media. Just power washed my patio of stone pavers. The stuff I used came in 5 gallon buckets. We are in Ontario, Canada. Early in my flagstone patio career I used to try and keep the screenings in my flagstone joints as close to level with the stones as possible, but with foot traffic, wind and rain, the joints seem to naturally level off to around an average of one eighth of an inch shy of flush with the flagstone.. It makes for a nice zen garden material if there are no kids running thru it. Luckily, there are many ways you can stabilize pea gravel on walkways and driveways. Ahhh, it is grande indeed. My husband who is a builder always goes to the product, which i always talk him out of, but cement is one that I cant seem to stop him from. Any idea on how to remove to get the stones back to previous state? I suppose soil from some of the joints could be leaking out onto the flagstones when it gets real wet and yes that could contribute to the patio looking more dirty although I really cant say for sure. I like your views and outlook so poly is out and screenings are in.not very keen on chemicals where the barefoot grandson walks! You will have to reapply at some point. Like a branching sort of design or meandering stream-like pattern. As mentioned in the article right above..I go with screenings. This downward slope on each side will help with water runoff and prevent washouts. I was told to lay my flag stone like a puzzle with a 3/4 in space in between, and use a mallet to get the flagstones to be level with one an other. Some people try and solve this problem with plastic edging. I did not want to mention this optionbecause I do not like it. I was wondering how best to address a potential problem as winter is approaching. The pea gravel is stable if it does not move when stepped upon and does not feel slippery. These will be an acrylic polymer epoxy resign stuff.essentially, liquid plastic. Binding agents like plaster, polyurethane, or epoxy coatings are also good ways to stabilize new and existing pea gravel. I am sure this is what the person who installed our flagstone patio 8 years ago said to use to fill the cracks. I am totally on board with between the cracks, but should I insist on the bed as well? You excavate the desired area for your walkway or driveway to about one inch and fill it to the top with pea gravel. Fact is that you simply can not use polymeric sand as a replacement for taking your time and doing the job right. The 3/8 crushed basalt is the right stuff. Do you think I should cement the tread on top of the cement riser? 2" joints may be too big for polymeric (read the bag/box). It appears that they ripped 2x 6 in half so that they had 1.5x 2-3/4 material. Most areas are failing, so I plan on filling the gaps with stone dust. material. One last question on screenings is this something Home Depot carries? And 1 of dg layering level? Ive been trying to choose a polymeric sand, and trust me, Ive watched many videos. The decomposed granite that I have seen was just screenings made from granite. Take it dry and rake it in with the pea gravel , you dont want too much cement sitting on top . Greetings! Then, if filled with stone dust or d/g (interchangeable, I dont know of any reason why DG might work better) the cut that you made will allow water to drain. Sweep the stone dust into the flagstone joints, hose down to set in place. So Id pop up a stone first and see whats underneath, before committing to a mortared repair. Seee this post here on sand cement or gravel. The stones tend to get lodged on your shoes and are dragged into the house. Psyllium husk joint binder is, as far as I can tell, a lot more natural than an acrylic based product. This more or less turns your stone dust into polymeric sandand you know the risks involved with that. Also, do not have the hose on too powerful of a setting, or you can blow the poly sand right out of the joint, and get it all over the flagstone/paver/whatever. Screenings are crushed stone. Furthermore, the polymeric sand stays in place because it is glued together and also glued to the stones or bricks it is placed between. How old is your patio? link to Why Are Houses In Florida Made Of Stucco? I think you use what you have available. As far as the gravel goes, crusher run is the stuff. I used stone dust under as a base and then screened gravel (sand). A gap that small can be left open. Third potential remaining problem area as I see it is bedding sand depth. Purchase screenings at a landscape supply store or at a quarry. Please do remember folks, local soils may vary. Dream stacked wall take all those small stones out as soon as come. From granite joint material my stone and patio furniture used came in 5 buckets. 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